August 5, 2008

  • Tolerance… for intolerance

    There is a long list of things for which the enlightened person is expected to be tolerant:

    • Racial background
    • Sexual orientation
    • Religion
    • Age
    • Gender

    I try to hold myself to this high standard, and attempt to be relatively enlightened.  It’s taken some time to get here… but I am proud of how far I’ve come.

    But one thing that has been troubling me greatly is intolerance… for intolerance.  For example:

    • Say a racist shares some of his or her thinking out loud.
    • Or a homophobe talks about why they don’t like gay people
    • Or a misogynist opens up about why they hate women

    When this happens, it becomes a feeding frenzy.  Everyone is so quick to condemn the racist/homophobe/misogynist.  Then that person slinks away into the night, as racist/homophobic/misogynistic as ever… and determined never to talk about it ever again.  Intolerance is the one thing that we’re allowed to judge and condemn, and so when we see it – we jump all over it.

    Am I turned off by racist/homophobic/misogynistic thoughts?  Yes, definitely.  Do I condemn them absolutely?  Without a doubt. But I am 33 years old.  Was I born a perfect enlightened person?  No.  I didn’t know anyone openly gay growing up.  I heard the words “fag” and “gay” on a regular basis growing up, and yes – I used those words casually myself when I was young.  Then one day, someone called me on it and I realized that that wasn’t who I wanted to be.  So I changed.

    When someone says something intolerant… I like to talk about it.  I like to ask them why they said it, and what their goal was in sharing.  Then I let them know my position and why I very much disagree with them.  Maybe I will advance tolerance and understanding just a little bit?  Maybe I’ll even learn from the person, about where they’re coming from and why they feel the way they feel.

    I see this intolerance for intolerance so often that I am becoming intolerant of it!  (Intolerance… for intolerance for intolerance?).  So I am writing this post to remind myself that tolerance is about more than rejecting discrimination.  It’s about opening your mind to someone else’s perspective – even if you violently disagree with it – and having an open and honest discussion about a difficult subject.

Comments (218)

  • This is a good entry.  It’s a very difficult thing to learn.  An open mind is something you have to work at, and keep working at for the rest of your life.

  • Mob mentality is irresistible.  I’ve been known to tune those people out and write them off.  I think your approach is probably better.   

  • Well said… what some people fail to realise is that sometimes it isn’t intolorance, its ignorance and the best way to combat ignorance is to educate, not belittle or degrade… So even if they sound like they are being intolorant bigoted a**holes… a little patience can change the world…

    THIS is featured content…

    Thanks for the great post John…

  • *standing and applauding*  WELL SAID!!!!

  • Ohhhh I could get on a huge soapbox right now, but I will contain myself.  This is absolutely a pet peeve of mine, this whole intolerance for intolerance thing.  I have some very firm but respectfully articulated beliefs about a few subjects, but no matter how respectfully I articulate them, they are met with the most hypocritical intolerance and it astounds me.  I find it arrogant to assume that just because our “enlightened” and “progressive” society has deemed certain behaviors acceptable that all other cultures and beliefs throughout history must have been wrong and close-minded. 

  • Wow John, great post! This needs to be featured.

  • i hate people who hate people

  • I totally agree with you!  And angi1972 hit it right on the head when she mentioned ignorance.  Anytime someone says something that is racist or otherwise offensive, I do just like you said and ask them why they feel that way.  I’m a strong believer that it’s the difference in people that makes the world go ’round.  I’m certainly not afraid to tell someone that I don’t tolerate IGNORANCE.  Maybe I should be more tolerant of it because it is their opinion but it just makes me so angry.  How could someone HATE somebody because of their sexual orientation?  Or color?  Or religion?  I get especially hung up on religion because I am an agnostic.  I live in the south and so many people around are Christians.  I totally respect that.  I think it’s awesome most folks around here are so strong in their faith.  However, there are a few who want to judge the type of person I am just because I don’t go to church and follow their God?  That really makes me angry. 

    Great post.  And well written. 

  • hear hear

  • You make a good point. I suppose I never thought about it that way. Like you, if I hear someone talking about something that I don’t agree with, whatever it may be, I want to discuss it. I believe it’s important to discuss our differences since we tend to learn more when we do. 

  • Nice entry.  I like this youtube video on how to handle race issues.

  • That last sentence summed it all up for me.  I agree completely.  Well said, John!  (And hey, we’re the same age! I was hardly born completely enlightened either.)

  • I’ve always had trouble handling situations where people are being intolerant, because it would make me intolerant for not tolerating their intolerance…

  • Social sanction and social rejection are powerful ways to eradicate bad behavior. That is why intolerance for intolerance is, in my mind, a very GOOD idea. There shouldn’t be a shred of tolerance for bigotry or racism etc. Where do you suppose this “honest discussion” is going to wind up if there is “tolerance” for bigoted views? It’s kind of like saying, “that’s OK, that’s your opinion” and then what? Is that kind of lukewarm feel good excuse making for intolerance supposed to change people minds? Because it won’t. It will just make it safe to be a bigot again.

    If tolerance for intolerance had been the order of the day we’d still be making the excuses that were made years ago… “well they’ve always had separate fountains…” “well they’re not fully human…” “well I was raised that way” “things have always been done this way”, etc. And slavery would have taken longer to terminate, Jim Crow laws longer to over turn, interracial marriages longer to sanction (and you and I might not exist, John), etc. If one’s going to be intolerant at all, I would HOPE it would be against evil.

  • So true.  Nice post.

  • Wow. I realized this is me. I can’t stand intollerant people. I can’t stand when I hear people judging other people. I realized I am intollerant of intollerance… I need to work on patience. Thank you for this.

  • Well put! unfortunately tolerance for intolerance doesn’t always work as well as it should. when we were in high school a ton of shit went down and eventually a christian rights mother went and put an add out in the paper saying that our Straight And Gay Alliance club should not exist and that the school was brainwashing her children. one of her arguments was that there was no club for the socialy awkward kids so why should there be one for gays … the moment all of us in RPG Club and Anime Club read the article we burst out laughing …

  • Some view points are absolutely wrong and should not be tolerated.  Tolerating hate and ignorance is immoral because they bring monumental suffering into the world.  What is the value of listening to someone spew hatred?  What is there to learn from a racist spewing racism? 

    The question is not one of tolerance but of civility.  If the hater is willing to listen, he might learn from a reasoned, civil, philosophical discussion.  Usually this is not the case because haters almost invariably suffer from deep seated anger and resentment.  This is also true of religious fanatics.  It is impossible to have a reasonable discussion with such a person.

    Using the intellect to judge whether something is right or wrong, beneficial or not, healthy or unhealthy is the proper use of the intellect.  The notion that we can’t judge the value of ideas is an incorrect notion.

  • nicely said *applauds*

    so if people are intolerant of intolerant people…that means they can’t stand themselves?

  • Ideaologies can be argued against/for – agreed.
    Actions speak louder than words and must be addressed and condemed.

    the datingish guy actually went ahead and shunned his gay friend. I don’t think everyone jumped on him b/c of his THINKING so much, but rather his ensuing actions.  

    REGARDLESS of how “honest” his words were, his actions will prove that it was little more than thinly veiled homphobia, unless he can get over it and be friends again – which was my point from the beginning.

  • I am of the same opinion, though I’ve never addressed it in that context.  Too often I find that we hate others for the simplest things and I’ve never understood it.  Specifically, right now I am absolutely in shock that it’s the Christian Conservatives that are campaigning left, right, and center to have marriage defined as one man and one woman so that the Gay and Lesbians won’t be able to have a legal marriage.  As a Christian, I always thought the one caveat of Christianity that was held up above all others was to “Love thy neighbor as thyself”.  I just don’t understand why we put so much energy into hating each other, it serves no purpose and leads to no good.

  • My redneck Aussie uncle’s reaction on learning I was doing a Masters in Human Rights Law was to groan, “Oh God, don’t bring all the ****in’ towel heads over here.”

    My intolerance for other’s intolerance is individual specific – each person gets a sort of “tolerance threshold” with me, and if they go over the top with their bigotry that’s it.  It isn’t that I’ll react, in every instance, and tell them I think they’re a dick – I’ll just stop associating with them.  If I can’t avoid it (say they’re a work colleague) then I’ll make it clear I don’t appreciate their attitude, explain why and ask them never to discuss it with me again. 

    I love my uncle, but he no longer has my current email address.

  • Trading one set of prejudices for a new learned set of dictated prejudices, still leaves one prejudiced.  Brainwashing sold as enlightenment by the intolerant.

    This was happening even in the ’80s on college campuses-debates turned into force fed ideological drivel and most professors refused to engage in any debates that tested their theories to rules of logic. We have reaped the harvest of what was sewn by just trading what is tolerable among the masses.

     Freedom of thought has suffered and just from reading this column I can see where diversity is  now frowned upon by the alleged progressives. 

  • This is why you’re a way better person than I. 

    This is an excellent point you bring up actually… being intolerant of intolerance.  It’s very true… I am guilty of being a downright bitch with “intolerant” people, instead of patiently trying to understand/show them better.  But I think it’s because every time I’ve tried, it’s failed. 

    So points for you for not giving up, and hoping that some people will listen and change their minds.

    This is probably why you’re the head of Xanga, the diversest of places, ass-kissing aside, hahaha.  ^_^

    Cool post.

  • @MaximMan - I could also tell this post might have been inspired by your comments there, hahaha.  =D    YOU’RE SUCH AN INSPIRING LAD, BWAHA!  ^_^

  • @nimbusthedragon - that conversation was merely a catalyst. credit to John for his eloquence in getting it all down in type.

  • Great point.  I would recommend this, but every time I click it, I’m re-directed to the top of the page (there have been a lot of strange glitches today… maybe it’s the weather?)

    Edit:  Now it seemed to work.

  • @MaximMan - Indeed!  It was a very interesting debate though.  No worries, I”m not trying to start any fires.  That story was just really interesting, because you could see a bit of truth on both sides.  And you’re both very eloquent.  Maybe you and john would have a VS panel and discuss various topics every week.  ^_-

  • @MaximMan - Of course it was probably thinly veiled homophobia.

    But how is the person going to grow and change, unless there’s an open and honest dialogue about it?  I’d rather have people talk about these things out in the open, then to shame them into hiding their true feelings.

  • I see a lot of that here in the south. You’d think in this day and age, people would open their minds and hearts. great reads btw.

  • Well, intolerance is more of a choice than race or sexuality. But I do try to remember that for a lot of people, it’s the way they are raised. So I try to talk to them in a calm, level-headed manner. Sometimes, though, that’s not always possible with people because a lot of people don’t think logically about these things, particularly if there’s religious reasonings behind them.

  • “Intolerance is the one thing that we’re allowed to judge and condemn…”

    You apparently haven’t seen all the hateful comments about fat people every time TheTheologiansCafe posts about obesity.

  • @john - JUST sometimes, shame is the only thing keeping certain people from showing their true colors. And frankly, I don’t really see that as all negative. If that’s what it takes for someone to keep the bigotry to him/herself, then so be it.  

    Like they say in Avenue Q, everyone is a little bit racist sometime. We’re just too ashamed to admit it – and there’s nothing wrong with that.

    and it would appear that therein lays our fundamental disagreement.

  • Well said.

  • I really think everybody needs to read this. Would you mind me posting a link?

    I think it all comes down to love and acceptance. People who are against intolerance believe this, but will only truly understand it when they can love people they disagree with as well. We are all guilty of it. It takes work. Thanks for bringing it to everyone’s attention.

  • I always call people out on racism.  ALWAYS.  You have to, or else they’ll never understand.  but of course, if it’s a good friend, don’t make it too awkward.. like calling them out right in front of a big crowd and embarrassing them.  

  • Very good point….

    I remember a friend of my mom who talked for 20 min. on how she hated complainers….
    and on how tolerant she is of intolerant people….

    Mental notes taken….I laughed later about it.

    Blessings.

  • Kudos. Such a hard thing to do. To many who are very quick to condemn, being open to listen is tantamount to agreement and that’s just as stupid as any ism. 

    It’s easy enough to figure out if a racist is going to make conversation or if they are going to simply transmit all over you and not really care to receive, not so easy with the religious zealots. They tend to receive just enough to find out how to direct their transmissions. Zealots for any cause are not open to receive. But I don’t think there are too many of them. I think most people are open at least a little and without people that have your attitude, there isn’t any chance for understanding and growth and learning.

    Hate speech is another issue though. It does not constitute conversation. I have never seen someone intolerant of intolerance use hate speech. But I am sure they exist in their ironic little universe somewheres.

    I think dealing with such a wide slice of the public has a lot to do with being able to have your perspective. Many people in public service also have adopted this philosophy. It’s a good one.

  • I think you’re describing pluralism more than tolerance.

  • I’m intolerant of black licorice. Does that make me racist?

  • You win.

  • I am not tolerant of intolerance, so I guess I’m one of those people you’re talking about.  It’s one thing to disagree with a person’s lifestyle or even to have a personal prejudice against another race or even to dislike women.  However, when those personal feelings and biases spill over to negatively affect your dealings with others, it’s time to do a reality check.  Intolerance means you don’t tolerate.  If you want to live by yourself on an island, that attitude is just fine.  However, most of us have to interact with others on a daily basis.  If you have intolerance in your heart, it eventually affects how you see other people and how you treat them. 

    I have very little patience for bigots, especially those who choose not to keep it to themselves.

  • A really good point. Thanks for reminding the rest of us as well. =)

  • Very well said. Being truly tolerant requires tolerating the intolerant. You do not have to agree with them but you have to accept their right to feel the way they do.

  • It works that way in politics, too.  Liberals and conservatives are often intolerant of each other’s thoughts and ideas, and so every election, it’s all-out war.  It’s horrible.  I wish both sides would listen to each other and maybe we ALL could benefit.  But we all seem to have stuck our fingers in our ears toward the other side.  It makes me think that this intolerance (together with people’s deep-seated dislike of people who are different from them, even though they won’t say it aloud) is the reason why Obama may lose.  It will be the biggest shame our nation will have to live down internationally in a good long while.  We will look like idiots, I’m afraid — first electing Bush (TWICE!) and the right-wing pundits daily attacking Obama where a lot of Americans’ fears lie.  I’m very afraid.  Will our nation make another big mistake?  Can’t we have some honest dialogue?  I wish all the pundits would not be able to speak again from now until the election and let the people and candidates have a discussion amongst themselves.  If only!

  • This has long been an issue in the liberal community.  It’s nice to see a bottom-up approach to it, though.

  • Nice.

    The word intolerance sounds funny now…

  • You’re smart and you’re very good at writing.

  • Good point and well said. I have to remind myself of this more often.

  • interesting…

  • This must be what “meta-tolerance” is.

  • I try to do the same.

  • In today’s society (which is no excuse) many people are pretty much forced to b tolerant of people whoare not. The sad truth is there are more people who are mean and discriminate more than people that stand up for he rights of others. I’ve been a vistim of this in more ways than one, and one of my old friends (emphasis on old) said that there’s nothing we can do about it, but he’s wrong…great entry…and good point….

  • You bring up a really good point. I have to say that I do fall in that category of immediately condemning intolerant people simply on the grounds of their intolerance. Guilty as charged.

  • Great post. So what is it, then, do you think causes bigotry?

    I suppose it could be ignorance, or bad experiences. Can bigotry, racism or homophobia ever be justified?

    Yes John, give me all the answers to big questions now!
    >_>

  • Wow. I had never considered this before! Thanks for posting this– it made me look at intolerance in a completely new light.

  • Try as I may to keep from cussing someone out in these situations, I do sometimes give in to my inner “mob mentality.”

  • Well honestly it depends on the way the ”intolerance” was expressed. It can be someone who is ignorant or has been brainwashed then yeah it makes sense to discuss. If it is someone shouting at you across the street, coming up to you with dogs claiming you can’t enter that store… What  is there to discuss? If it is someone that is set in their ways and you can’t discuss anything? I am either gonna waste precious time or end up getting angry. I don’t see the point. It really depends on the person… 

  • Usually I let people think what they like about whatever issue they have. If they’re being intolerant, of course I get mad, but that’s the way they think & what right do I have to try to change their minds.

    I hate it when people make a big issue of how I think things should be. I have reasons for thinking the way I do. I try to aknowledge what other people say, but my believes will usually stay the same.

  • you’re brave. a month ago i was hanging out with my boyfriend’s (now ex’s) friends and they always make Asian jokes, and I don’t care for them really, but I got very irritated and disturbed when one of his friends made a condescending Asian joke towards an actual Asian person near us. And I got even more irritated when my bf laughed along.  Oh btw, the friend is Mexican and the bf is white. It was a very shocking experience.

  • I used to feel like it was just too much trouble to put up with bigots, but I’m coming around to a more relaxed attitude, too.

  • This is one of your better entries. I agree. What I found most interesting is your line, “Then one day, someone called me on it and I realized that that wasn’t who I wanted to be.  So I changed.” That’s a very difficult thing to do. It shows great humility and discipline.

  • who can tolerate me now?

  • It does seem to be the topic of discussion, I think it is a good thing that we are talking about it, I feel the fact that we are talking about it means we can tolerate differences in thinking, and everyone doesn’t have to be a carbon copy. 

    Tricia

  • knowledge is learning. So many shut out others and not realizing that only causes ignorance.

    Great post

  • wow. great post :)

  • YEA! Free speech is free speech and nobody’s ever going to like that regardless of how tolerant or intolerant they are or perceive themself to be. Everyone has a limit within their belief system, whether they recognize or not that they’ve even subscribed to a belief system. You can go left or you can go right, but you still gotta speak. And that’s only fair.

  • I like this. You are very wise.

  • I loved this post, I’m a sociology student who loves asking innocent questions.  And believe me they are innocent.  I’m about 50/50 on this… I do believe that people think differently because of how they were raised etc, and that should be accounted for… However like you I’m not a fan of racist, sexist, or elitist comments/posts either.

  • That’s a really good point. I don’t hate much.. but I do hate hate. 

  • I was so getting ready to beat you over the head. The often heard bit of hypocrisy “I am only intolerant of the intolerant” has been wearing thin on me. 

    And here I find a man without a even bit of hypocrisy on this subject. I liked it

  • That’s very enlightened.

  • yes! this is IT. this is what i mean, whatever the subject, be open minded about it. i always try to see others’ point of view in ANY subject/topic/situation, but i can’t say the same for others. you may not disagree with a certain topic, but at least listen out to what other people have to say. 

  • well said!  I absolutely agree.  This “intolerance for intolerance” mentality drives me nuts.  It’s all so hypocritical to me when someone who preaches tolerance become so intolerable about intolerance.  The other issue that bugs me is that it seems that many don’t have a good understanding what “tolerance” means.  But your post sums it up nicely.  2 props to you!

  • not many people are as open minded as you, though. They’re quick to judge, want to start a fight, etc. Oh wells, we can only do what’s within our power… kudos to you, though!

  • I know you know this by now,  since you run Xanga,  but this is going to get featured.

  • i like it when an intelligent person disagrees with me on something i’m passionate about and can actually explain to me why he/she feels that way without saying a bunch of nonsensical stuff. i don’t mind having a discussion about the issue and trying to see where they are coming from if they do the same for me.  i am intolerant of intolerance when someone can’t intelligently explain why they are intolerant or refuse to attempt to see things from a different perspective.

  • intolerance for ignorance =/

  • More often than not we expect a lot more tolerance from others, than we are willing to give ourselves.

    Maybe something to do with our misunderstood notion of our own preciousness at the expense of others.

    Good post.

    x

  • I too am turned off by the same comments. You close yourself off alot of beautiful things in life by being prejudice in any way.

  • Bravo!  I think this is a wonderful post.  I have to (and have) admitted my own intolerance.  I am intolerant of stupid people. I don’t mean people who are ignorant (do not know better) or mentally retarded (do not have the ability to know better).  I am talking about people who CHOOSE to not learn.  I am intolerant of people who can not give me a reason to their argument beyond “ummm”. I work on it. Because I do recognize that some people just DON’T understand that stretching themselves beyond their birth family values has value because they were never taught to value it…ugh that’s confusing.

    Anyway great post

  • Wow, you’re thirty-three? ’80s kid! ^_^

    Some of the comments around here- especially on Revelife- drive me nuts. But I love the blogging world’s freedom of speech. Everyone benefits, so I rarely argue with comments no matter how outrageous they are.

    I don’t really think I could change anyone’s mind by replying to a comment. That’s just the way I feel about it. *shrug* Some might tell me that isn’t helpful… and I guess it isn’t.

    …Wow, this comment went nowhere.

  • very well said.  There are things I think I would find it hard to discuss with someone, but I guess I could work on it.

  • i totally agree. i hate it when people jump to conclusions when they hear something they dont agree with. they seem to have forgotten to listen or that theirs is not the only viewpoint that’s correct. especially with religion. i hate it when people openly condemn atheists without even listening to the atheist’s arguments. they dont have to agree, but they could listen. listening only brings more enlightenment,

    great post!

  • Outstanding entry, excellent point. we should try to understand people even if we don’t agree with them or strongly disagree with them…it also give them a chance to learn about your point of view.

  • I thought this was a stunning post, and i so totally think you are right. Thank you so much for bringing this into discussion. I really liked sophia’s comment… i appreciate intelligent conversation when i need to learn something about myself. But like others have said above, so many of those who are intolerant of others have deep-seated hatred or anger issues, and are impervious to any piercing of their hard shells. Unfortunately, i find that many religious people can be quite obdurate, also. It’s so hard to find anyone willing to listen to anything but their own rhetoric.

    Thank you, John!

  • thanking you for making me think!

  • I have no idea why I thought you were 50ish… but well said for your 33 years. =P

    I disagree though… I do not perceive it as “intolerance for intolerance”; rather it is yet another viewpoint/perspective.  The mere word “intolerance” puts a bit of a nasty connotation to it, thus more of a judgmental spin, blah blah, etc.

  • This was great =)

  • A person will always find justification for ignoring any of the precepts of an ‘enlightened person’ and still consider himself enlightened.  Its the “yes, but…” response. 

  • Someone maybe already said this, but I like this quote: “I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it.” I completely agree with what you wrote.

  • Good entry!

    I agree. I am also trying to become a better person, and this way of thinking is essential. I agree with everything you said!

  • I can definitely understand tolerance.  I am very tolerant…but what do you do when people who are intolerant of you, based on your religion/sex/sexual orientation, come to your website and spam it with anti-you posts or links?

    I’ll be honest here.  I delete the comment, block the user and back track it too the site it came from.  If I find more of the same stuff on the site…I flag it for prejudice so you guys will hopefully look at it. 

    It bothers me that these people have their sites which spew their “freedom of speech” but as part of their method of spreading their hatred they spam the blogs of people in groups they hate.  It really isn’t right.

    In fact, I know people who have completely protected their blogs for the very reason I mentioned.

  • I am learning to deal with people who have different beliefs than I do. Religiously speaking. I’m very interested in people who are different from me. Trasgendered and transexuals are some of the people that I’m learning about. I don’t think I’ll ever be tolerant to it though. I wouldn’t bash someone if they were like that. But I don’t know if I could ever be best friends with one. But I don’t know, I don’t think I’ve ever met someone like that in real life.

  • Woo! Featured! It’s not like I’ve ever seen you featured before. You deserve it.

  • I couldn’t agree more, you can’t fight hate with hate. We’re all guilty of making hasty judgements, no matter how ‘enlightened’ we get. It’s a terrible thing to never let the mind turn inward. Hate’s always going to be with us, it is inherrent as the result of dissapointment, desire, misunderstanding and anger. If we were to start today, with zero hatred -cultural and elsewise, we’d find new hatred rising in suprisingly little time. Hate needs to be defined, identified and it needs to be monitored closely once found.

  • Excellent post!

  • We can simply tolerate the good and can’t tolerate the evil. Tolerance itself can’t be our moral value unconditionally.

  • great post, I was thinking about this same topic the other day and vowed to write an entry about my thoughts, but you beat me to the punch! Interesting how being intolerant of the intolerant seems to be so in style, while few people actually try to do what you do – tolerate the intolerant. 

  • All evil needs to suceed is for good people to do nothing.

    A good person should be intolerant of discrimination.  However, approaching the issue with “OMFG u are such a white trash loser you racist hoebag” is not the right way.  I hope that is what you meant by this post.

  • Nice post and made to bring out various different new thoughts and ideas.

  • I can’t stand intollerant people. I can’t stand when I hear people judging other people.Nice entry.  I like this youtube video on how to handle race issues.

  • You’re very wise, John.  I think this one is really hard for a lot of people to aspire for, even when the intolerance has nothing to do with them.  I find it very hard to not become irritated when I listen to people talk about gays or people of a certain religion or whatever in an offensive way.  But I think you’re right.  Unless we express tolerance for their intolerance and open up communication…nothing will change.  They’ll go on being intolerant, viewing and treating people as less than themselves.  

  • Well said… I can’t deny I’m intolerant of intolerance. And most people are. Which makes us all hypocrites, and I’m pretty sure most of us are intolerant of hypocrites as well, which makes us even more hypocritical…

  • It’s a difficult balance, to let it be known that certain behaviors and prejudices will not be tolerated (because honestly, they shouldn’t) while still treating that person as a person, and trying to enlighten rather than belittle. 

    There are certain things that I do believe should not be tolerated, on any level.  Physical/emotional/sexual abuse is one example.  I have no shame in saying that I am and always will be intolerant of those types of actions.  But there are many ways of dealing with people, and kindness and understanding tend to get you much farther than brute force and condescension. 

    I don’t know if I see it as really being “tolerant” of racist , etc, remarks, but trying to be understanding of the individual who spoke them, while at the same time letting them know that making those remarks is NOT ok.

  • This go tme thinking… I’m usually so fast at jumping onto a person saying something racist/homophobict etc. and just beating their ass verbally that I don’t really listen to their opinion and then give them mine. I haven’t thought about it at all until I read this! You really affected my way of thinking!

    Thanks for an enlightening read!

  • I think Bloom dealt with this in “The Closing of the American Mind.”

  • great post.  I think that people should keep their opinions to themselves on those matters.  I mean, to me, it is none of my business if this person is gay or a lesbian.  It is also none of my business if the other person doesn’t like it.  People are who they are.  The world would be a better place if people would realize that they are not God and have no right to judge other people

  • Great post.  No wonder so many rec’d it.

  • Well written.

  • I view myself as a very tolerant individual, I even avoid talking to someone who is racist/sexist/intolerant when possible to avoid conflict.  I had an instance where I was in the lunch room of my work, and someone had mentioned gay marriage in passing.  Someone who was very opposed to this went on wildly, saying how they weren’t meant to be that was and that it was utterly disgusting.  The kind of person who has a set opinion and will not budge, and will judge you for being accepting.

    That kind.  Needless to say I spoke up and pointed out certain TRUE facts about homosexuals and especially that these people aren’t bothering him, and to just let it be.  He went on to say that homosexuals should be shot and killed. 

    Now I don’t really know how to deal with this any more than to avoid this person (who I find HIGHLY offensive now) like the plague.  I can’t stand people of his intolerance, I think he’s probably more disgusting than I’d ever imagined an intolerant person to be.

  • Psshhh. Everyone on here is always tolerant of my awesome casual racism and flippant homophobia, mostly because they know if they aren’t, then ITS A BUNKHOUSE BRAWL WITH BIG BABY SPIRAL RUNNIN WILD ON YOU, BROTHER

  • You know, I had a similar thought about this a couple months ago.  I had all but forgotten about it until I read this…very interesting.

  • It’s all about agreeing to disagree.

  • Well said!

  • People have their own views and perceptions ingrained inside of them like hardened cement. No matter how we try to change their ways of thinking, they will stay as they are.

  • I can’t fathom any good reasons to be tolerant of something like racism when it is expressed. Granted,  I don’t partake in the ‘frenzy’ of attacks that follows such a person making their presence known but just because people attack these ideas without discretion does not mean they are wrong to do so.
    People that hold intolerant beliefs have most often already set them in stone. They are most likely not going to change through any amount of civil discourse (and likely won’t stand for the discussion anyway.)
    So no, there is no good reason to blithely target these individuals – but if someone decides to talk to me about being a racist, yeah, he’s an asshole and I’m going to call him on it.

  • I’ve tried talking to intolerant people before. It’s a great experience if they’re willing and able to provide a logical argument. On the other hand, if they’re not and can’t even seriously consider my opinions, I usually walk away being highly annoyed with them.

    @WomanOfLight - Theoretically, your idea should work. However, as with the case of racism, just because society condemns certain beliefs doesn’t mean it will necessarily go away. People will still continue to think it because they are set in their ways. 

  • “There is no racial bigotry here. I do not look down on niggers, kikes, wops or greasers. Here you are all equally worthless.”

    ~Gunnery Sergeant Hartman 

  • Your post is very well said, and I’ve never really, truly thought about it that way. Many people are hypocritical and it’s just one of those things that’s hard to feel “right” about, no matter which side of it you are on.

    I did want to bring up the idea of certain situations where someone is being intolerant and it is actually hurtful to someone else. Not in the sense of “that just hurts my feelings”, because although that can be important, it’s also so easy to do at times. But what about when someone is actually defacing someone else? Being intolerant to the point where they wouldn’t care if they lived or died?

    I understand not being so hypocritical to condemn them yourself, but I think it would be okay even as a “tolerant” person to outright disagree and try to stop them from behaving in such a way. Could it hurt to try and understand them? Of course not – but, if under usual moral circumstances you know that that person could do actual harm, I wouldn’t call it necessarily being an intolerant person to jump on it rather than taking the nice sit-down approach. After all, those people who believe in intolerance so strongly probably aren’t the type that will be willing to sit down and talk about it. To them, it is what it is, and there doesn’t have to be a reason for them to hate. I think it would be ridiculous to say that we must be tolerant of a killer, a rapist, etc. Trying to understand them may be an enlightening process, yes. But I hope that most of us would agree that even after we had a little talk with them to get their point of view, we still wouldn’t accept what they do as something to tolerate in this world. As I will mention at the end of my post, understanding is probably the furthest you can go with this. You can take away some of the malice, possibly, if you have talked with that murderer or rapist and find out that they had some way of thinking that wasn’t simply selfish or craze-driven. And if you understand better at that point, good. But hopefully you won’t get to the point where their actions become tolerable under their thinking. Jumping at those people without knowing the situation shows that you are a person who doesn’t attempt to understand. But on a tolerance level, I think it’s just a natural reaction, in this extreme circumstances, that is, to lash out as extremely intolerant of those people who are seeming to do such harm. Many of them don’t have good reasons to do such things (although some of them might have different thinking, as explained earlier, and hence the reason to try and be an understanding person) but being generally intolerant of the act itself I think isn’t something to think of yourself – or others – hypocritically for.

    On an ending note, I don’t think it’s possible for someone to be completely tolerant if you match it up to the standards of accepting everything, or at least not outright rejecting it. I think if we try to do the thing that we think will be the best for the people involved or the issues at hand, and you truly are not being intolerant of opposing views (given the are not hurtful), then you can be considered a tolerant person. If, on the other hand, the second you voice your strong opposition to something that you just don’t care for you become intolerant, nobody on this earth would be tolerant. As you have demonstrated, you can’t be everything at the same time and it will go in a cycle. If you are a tolerant person, it only makes sense to think you are intolerant of others who aren’t tolerant as well (assuming that people believe in things for a cause and not just to say they “are”).

    My point is, if you truly believe in something, like tolerance, there’s no possible way that you can always accept everything else that everyone else does because the very reason you are tolerant in the first place is because you hopefully feel that it is better for the world. And it will be natural for you to disagree and whether you can really help it or not, feel intolerant, with those who are intolerant, intolerant of intolerance, and then pretty soon you are rooting against your own self in that chain of thought.

    I think the main idea is that people try to be respectful whether or not they agree with something, and as long as you haven’t jumped the gun on a situation you haven’t tried to get more familiar with, you can probably be seen as a commendable person no matter how it turns out in the end. Because it could be worse – you could definitely be one of those people who doesn’t care about learning about others, doesn’t care who they hurt if they believe in something enough, etc. Trying to understand is probably the biggest kind of person you could be in this world at this point, because there are very few times where a disagreement is ever solved – or dropped – without something negative happening in the process.

  • I def. don’t have the tolerance for intolerance. being as impatient as I am, I don’t  even feel the need to argue with them about their thoughts.

    Wish I did though.

  • haha

    there’s a facebook group called students for the tolerance of intolerance. opened by another john….unless you’re the same john D:

  • There are a few things that some people mentioned already & I have to agree with them – the notion of ‘tolerance for intolerance’ misses the point. People aren’t intolerant of racial hatred, homophobia, sexism, etc because they’re just hypocritical and angry – they are intolerant of it because it is the prevailing sentiment that dictates which laws come about, which do not, and how laws are enforced. Mind you, that intolerance comes at different degrees – certainly not every person who votes for a ban on same sex marriages is holding up a sign that says ‘God hates faggots’ and throwing rocks at same sex couples, but whether they are blatantly harassing them or keeping silent and just showing up on election day to block their marriage the result is the same – someone in the minority has fewer rights because of intolerance. The same could be said as people mentioned previously in the cases of having the separate but wholly unequal establishments based on race. A political majority supported that and therefore things had remained the same for quite some time.

    The notion of sitting down and trying to rationalize why someone feels a certain hateful way is also a bit naive. When you are hated you are constantly hearing why people feel a certain way. Their voices are the loudest and again their voices can be a political majority. It’s not until members of the government override the tyranny of the majority that we start seeing breakthroughs in civil rights (again, marriage laws).

    Is there a rational response or explanation to someone who says that s/he thinks that same sex couples are gross and will burn in Hell? That’s a hate-faith based comment. Is there a rational response to someone who has a learned ignorance due to upbringing? That’s not rational, that’s a product of being ‘nurtured’ (malnourished, if you ask me) to hate without question. Is there a rational explanation for someone who hates Latino immigrants because s/he is positive s/he was robbed by one? What is rational about hating all people for the act of one person? That is about as rational as seeing one blue bird and determining at that point that all birds must be blue and ignoring evidence showing otherwise.

    Yes, it’s good to debate with people and yes it’s always good to present them with more information than they’ve been giving and information that counters their hatred, but you can’t expect that after such a long history of hatred that any one person will be changed because you present them with counterpoints. A lot of people have encountered those points and have willingly shrugged them off or deemed them an exception to a rule they’ve created or a rule they’ve come to believe is ‘FACT’ and ‘TRUTH.’

  • That is sooo “gay” ???

  • @Chinese_Sait0u - Is that a cyndaquil????? 

  • Irrationality, depending on the context, can be met with a large range of legitimate reactions–including intolerance.

    It is ok, even proper, to publicly scold a bigot into shame and even humiliation.

  • this reminded me of a friend who once wisely said, “i hate people who hate people.”

  • wow, very well said. i like this

  • This is great. I think the idea that you have thought through here will help many people who haven’t thought over such things. This is why Xanga is so great; there are so many intelligent minds out there sharing. Thanks much!

  • Very nicely written. What most people dont do, expecially younger people, is in their quest to be open to things in the world, they just go along with whatever is going on and whatever everyone eltse thinks and dont form their own opinions. They dont understand that its ok to be against something someone eltse is doing or thinking, while still loving them as a person.

  • well said… couldn’t agree more… altho I find myself being those that say something intolerant once in a while =(

    just could not control it ><

  • Every single person I’ve talked to in an attempt to enlighten them has turned out to be intolerant and unwilling to change his or her opinion. I think having tolerance for intolerance is disgusting.

  • Funny how you don’t mention misandry at all. Misandry gives birth to a new misogynist every day. I know people worry more about misogyny more for a number of reasons, but as a former mild misogynist myself (something I never thought I was capable of), in order to change I had to first learn that not all women hate, disrespect and demean men. Luckily for me, it came when my mom started changing the way she treated my dad. It changed my viewpoint on women. Not everyone is so lucky.

    As to tolerance of intolerance, I think it’s an interesting point you make. Personally, while I understand someone who doesn’t trust the opposite gender, or someone who thinks homosexuality is wrong, I don’t have any room in my mind for racism and I admit I have a hard time relating. That being said, people are people, and as such they have innate value, regardless of their gender, lifestyle or race. They ought to be treated as such.

  • I definitely agree! awesome post.

  • this is a great entry~ congrats on being featured

  • when I was younger we use to work “jepped” a lot for when we got a bad deal on something.  in college i still used the word casually because i just thought it was a word/sound people normally made when they got a bad deal on something.

    then someone told me that “jepped” comes from the word “jewwed” which refers to the sterotype that jews are money hording and don’t give good deals and down right bad deals, it seems the word that i so innocently used steams from an intolerant source.  my gosh!  i never knew.

    then again it seems people are taking things too seriously these days… maybe people just need to lighting up.  I mean last night i heard about the snikers commerical that had to be pulled that stared Mr. T because gays thought it was insulting them.  i saw the commerical and didn’t really think that was the case at all.

  • Wow, finally a concise entry on this issue. Mad Props.

  • Well stated.

  • I understand where you are coming from; intolerance burns my ass. But I have no experienced this whole idea of mob mentality when it comes to intolerance. Mostly the people who I hang with just go silent or ignore what the person said until they leave.

  • I think intolerance is a good thing. Intolerance of an immoral action or injustice or an ignorant judgment makes us stronger. It tells the other side that it is not okay to do that. Tolerance is what has brought the greatest nation on earth down to its knees in the muck and mire of everyone else’s problems.

  • sometimes overly tolerant people can have no personal opinion at all, or simply passive.

  • “Then I let them know my position and why I very much disagree with
    them.  Maybe I will advance tolerance and understanding just a little
    bit?”

    Props to you for this post, but I wonder just a little if you’re really tolerating intolerance if you refuse to accept that the person has a right to the opinion you disagree with, as long as they have thought it through properly.  Because you aren’t tolerating their view if you insist that they should have to change it to be “enlightened.”  A truly tolerant person doesn’t create hierarchies of enlightenment, of goodness and badness.  Tolerance is accepting people the way they are.

  • I agree wholeheartedly with this post.  You pointed out one of the basic hypocrisies in American culture.  While I personally don’t condone racism, misogynism, or a bunch or other -isms, it’s supposed to be one of our basic freedoms that everybody has the right to speak their mind, whether or not anybody agrees with it.  I think Voltaire had the best quote that applies here: “I disagree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it.”  That statement doesn’t say anything about “as long as it’s still politically correct,” or “as long as it doesn’t fall into category A, B, or C.”  Intolerance is intolerance no matter where the emotion is directed.  You don’t have to associate with people you can’t stand, but they still have the right to speak, whether we like it or not.

  • @CertifiedXangsta - I completely agree.  Now I am not a fan of ignorance, bigotry, or blind hatred…but I am a fan of listening to both sides of an argument.  Some conservative viewpoints have been labeled closed-minded and therefore incapable of intelligent discussion and I hate it when people who think themselves progressive and liberal look down on people they consider unenlightened.  I know plenty of racist people, but I definitely agree that the best way to combat it is to challenge their beliefs and make them see another side, not simply write them off as idiots and a$$holes.

  • well written :)

  • Wow, this is some great insight. Now that I reflect on myself, I sort of do see myself as overtly intolerant for intolerance of intolerance. Confusing much?=)

  • @la_magdalena - yesssssss…..what of it?

  • for reall. you’re 100% right. i can’t tolerate intolerance for intolerant people either.
    =p

  •      I think that you are starting to see through the double standard that the culture has erected. If a person wanted to elevate tolerance as the highest virtue, then that would mean we would also have to tolerate murderers, pedophiles, and whatever other “opinions” people have. Also, if it were someones opinion that drunk driving was ok, or driving on the left side of the road , or throwing rocks at windows is ok; then would you have to agree with them, or only tolerate them.  Even if someone only had the opinion that tolerance is bad, you would not be allowed to judge this opinion as good or bad. You would be required to view both opinions as equally valid. Furthermore, facts would have no basis for determining if something should be tolerated. The only thing that makes it good for something to be tolerated would be if someone believed it or not.

         It seems that what the culture is advocating is NOT tolerance. The people who talk about tolerance are not simply tolerating homosexuality. They are saying that homosexuality is normal and good and healthy. So people who say that they are tolerant are really saying that they accept as normal and good and healty the things that some other people think of as wrong and abnormal and unhealthy. People who believe that homosexuality is unhealthy, or abnormal are still TOLERATING it. They just don’t agree with it.

         I submit that anouther virtue is much greater than tolerance. This virtue is LOVE. Jesus Christ said that all rules of morality are based on loving your neighbor as yourself, and loving God (that which is good/just/right/loving). We should love our neighbor instead of just tolerating him. Real love wants whats best for that person, regardless of it’s cost to us. If we were to love someone so much that we would tell them the truth that the homosexual lifestyle is hurtful, then we would be labeled a homophobe or hatemonger. But if you really love them, then you want what’s best for them, even if it costs you admiration, respect, or the friendship of that person.

         Doing what’s right is always the loving thing to do. When a person puts doing what’s right above their own comforts, and wants, then that person has become an adult. There are alot of grown ups out there who haven’t yet become adults, because they still need to be accepted by others in order to feel ok about themselves. Which brings us back to tolerance.

         Being tolerant is about your comfort. It’s about being polite. It’s society telling you not to rock the boat. It’s being a ”nice guy”.   It’s about not standing out from the crowd.

         But being loving is about doing the right thing. It’s about being good, as opposed to being nice. It’s about being so dedicated to loving people, that people are going to hate you for it. You tell them what they need to know, not what they want to hear. They don’t want to hear that the path they’re on is going to lead to ruin, they’d rather continue being comfortable. Covering up rather than boldly setting out. Just as Jesus Christ was hated for speaking the truth, so will you. But it is the only way to live a life woth living, and to die a death worth dying.

    *for more info on this topic, see The Bible

  • Wonderful post 

  • John, I take back every bad thing I ever said about you. 

    As a slight handful might know, I turned off recs and comments a few months ago in order to hold down what TheTheologiansCafe calls “xanga drama”.  I’ve seen some pretty nasty stuff go down after innocently recommending someone’s artwork.  I decided that I never wanted to be promoted on a wave of drama, or to have others use my site to dramatically promote themselves, and I also wanted to hold down visible backlash tracking onto subs’ sites via positive support to my site.  For a few weeks there, xanga land felt like gang wars, and it really bothered me.

    Turning off the recs and comments has given me a sense of incredible freedom in what I’d like to share on my blog.

    So for this post that you have made, John, coming out the day after my own post called I think men are cool, which really struck a chord with a few messages coming back to me from men who feel like the whole world hates them, I want to say THANK YOU.

    Xanga blogs are awesome.  I certainly have a lot of fun playing on all 14 or so of mine.  But the best thing I’ve gotten out of xanga is a sense of my own self, of focus, of direction in my own life, of self discipline.  This is a great place to hang out and collect my thoughts.

    I agree with freedom of expression.  I agree it’s ok for anyone to write how they feel on their own blogs, because I do that and get a LOT of head work done.  Unfortunately, I feel the need to do that on a private blog because I’m aware that I could incite riots on particularly bad days.  I’m a hothead with Asperger’s syndrome, and I’m very good at expressing my opinions without realizing how mean I sound.  I have changed a lot since I started with xanga.  I used to crave the reaction, now I simply just watch my head come out on xanga and learn from that.  I see a lot of other people doing the same thing, like baby steps coming out of their closets, blinking in the public light, and it’s so refreshing to see people be honest as they learn to share who they really are.  And since this is the internet, it’s so easy to walk away if I find them annoying.  If I feel I have to respond negatively to someone, that’s MY baggage, not theirs.

    Thanx again for the way you posted your thoughts on this stuff.  Subtle, cool, nonjudgmental.  This is the kind of stuff that makes me proud to say I chose xanga over the other blog hosts.  Thank you.

    Janika

  • Effing awesome post..

  • I’m with you, John.  We should be about making people more tolerant and not making the intolerant more intolerant.

  • Interesting and great post. I’ve never thought about it that way. I usually don’t
    openly condemn those kind of people. I look at them as a bunch of
    ignorant numbskulls who refuse to become educated/enlightened/inspired.
    I don’t blame them for their ignorance. I blame the society (esp the
    media) for promoting this kind of ignorance. I get really ticked off
    when I hear racially and sexually derogatory terms on the TV, radio,
    magazines, etc, but there isn’t anything that I can do about it. People are abusing the freedom of speech.

    Anyways,
    I got a little bit off-topic up there. It’s hard to keep an open mind
    when you are surrounded by ignorant people in the society. Good luck
    though.

    Does being ignorant to ignorant people count as
    “ignorant”? In other words, if you are ignorant towards ignorant
    people, are you considered to be ignorant?

  • Excellent thoughts!  Thank you for Sub’ing.  Your tuna recepe from your last post is something I have to try!

  • Two things.

    One, there are reasons to tolerate intolerance. Its inevitable. For instance, if somebody is condemning gays for any reason, they are being intolerant, now you, being the what you call ‘enlightened’ and what I call ‘peaceful’, will be tolerant of that person’s views regardless of their reasons, only because if you are intolerant of them, that means you would have to go out of your way to make it known that you are intolerant, or that disagree. It isn’t necessary to speak your mind and cause a problem or an argument. Most ignorant people will hold steadfast onto their beliefs more readily than an ‘enlightened’ person will.  If that person commits a crime against those he doesn’t tolerate, it is justice’s job to take care of it, not yours.

    Secondly, take comfort in Karma, although its not exactly perfect, if you piss enough people off by being an ignorant bigot, you’ll get what you bargained for. Because, removing the idea of intolerance and differences, you have a person, running amok and making people feel bad, making mean comments and such, and regardless of WHO those people are and what their beliefs are, if you’re a meanie, they’ll make you feel it.

    Thats basically all I have to say.

  • This is my opinion, but I think that “tolerance” is just a redirected form of hatred.
    For example:
    “Don’t hate Jews, hate the Nazis”
    “Don’t hate Blacks, hate the KKK”
    “Don’t hate gays, hate the homophobes”

    The world would be a better place if we accepted, instead of tolerated.

  • ‘Oh, I’m very open-minded, and I accept people of their sexuality, race, gender, religion, and all sorts–What?! Did she just call me a lesbo nigger?! She calls everyone a lesbo nigger?! Oh no she didn’t.’

    …So much for being open-minded. This post has a very good point indeed.

  • amen. i love this post.

  • John…I agree…since when is racism or bigotry illegal, yet, you find someone professing these ideas and villagers come together with stones in their hands..

  • Very good insight. It is in our individual life experiences that our perceptions are formed and it is sometimes difficult to realize that it is not in how convincing our words are that will change anothers perception but how convincing our character is. The only true way to lead is by example . Unconditional  love and acceptance is always easier to have for those who agree with us.

  • nice day naz

  • “tolerance is about more than rejecting discrimination.  It’s about opening your mind to someone else’s perspective”

  • This is quite inspirational and a moral message I definitely need to learn to follow. Thanks for letting me use this as a reminder for myself as well (:

  • Tolerance is when someone becomes very impossible to deal with, and still you try to be friends with them.

  • i like your post.

    i think everyone is a little racist/sexist/whatever. to ask ourselves very honestly, we just don’t feel very comfortable with people who are different. it’s not always discrimination and it’s no big deal.

    it’s the people who judge and make statements and generalisations of people who are different from them that we should be wary of.

  • great post, but um… are we supposed to be tolerant of the things God has commanded against? isn’t that kind of like bowing the knee to the world, instead of the creator of it?

    Granted, we should not hate someone for their sin, we all sin. All sin leads to death. None of us is without it, and no sin is worse than another with regard to it’s separating us from a Holy God. However, tolerance leads to acceptance, and acceptance leads to institution. Homosexuality is just as sinful as stealing a candy bar. If I tell someone stealing is wrong, it generally is agreed with, and admitted as right. Why then, when I tell someone that homosexuality is wrong am I condemned as a homophobe, or a hateful person. I thought we weren’t supposed to condemn people?

    There are those who preach against homosexuality wrongly, yes. I am not one of those. I love the person who is homosexual just as much as I love the person who steals a candy bar. But that does not mean that I cannot tell the thief what they are doing is wrong.

    It all goes to absolute truth, I suppose you have to be aware of such a thing before you can promote adherence to it.

    Thank you for all the responses that are almost sure to follow. Just remember…. tolerance.

  • Wow, John. I am impressed.

    Forgive me for waxing political/religious here for a moment, but this is what conservative Christians have been saying for years. We don’t hate individuals; we oppose choices and ideologies.

    For this, we get ostracized and can no longer contribute to the social dialogue . . . which simply drives the culture further from the center until Western civilization simply snaps free from its anchor and drifts blindly into amorality (please notice I said “amorality”, not “immorality”).

    I’m glad you shared your reminder with us.

  • good post and good point.

  • I disagree. I think McDonald’s mcFluffy is very good.

    And fagots are for burning.

    )D.B. Platypus(

  • @WomanOfLight - I somewhat disagree with you. I don’t think that John means that we should allow or condone intolerance, simply that while we disagree with these people and know that they are being intolerant, we should try to educate them and convince them rather than shun them or belittle them. That only enforces their intolerant beliefs.

    For example, if someone says “I hate you because you’re gay” and the person then says back to them “well you are an intolerant a-hole son of a B,” they haven’t made a very convincing argument towards that person that they shouldn’t hate him. He has affirmed that person’s hatred for homosexuals. Instead he should refute the person’s statement and try to show him why he is wrong.

    At least, that’s my take on it.

  • nice. very enlightened indeed. I get intolerant of people who are a little too tolerant sometimes though, tghe ones without a backbone.

    Very interesting though, nonetheless.

  • @CanadianConspiracy - Yah, I meant exactly what you said.

    But that said, I don’t mean to dismiss the other point: there is definitely value in clear social sanction against intolerant behavior, and of course in group settings it is especially important (as several people have pointed out).  But in smaller settings, I try to understand where the other person is coming from and see if we can’t reach a deeper understanding together (based on a combination of our thoughts and experiences).

  • i agree….we will not all agree with each other and that is fine. We just need to understand that deep down we are all flawed. It’s the one beautiful thing that we have in common with one another. Agree to disagree…..love each regardless.

  • I agree. We won’t always agree with each other. The beautiful thing we have in common is the fact that we are all flawed. no one’s perfect….Reverse racism, sexism, etc is becoming all the rage now. I think that we just need to agree to disagree…and love each other regardless.

  • I think it’s safe to say that this is probably one of my favorite posts…ever. It’s such a great point, I’ll remember this next time I get angry at someone for being intolerant.

  • EXACTLY! YES, FOR GOD’S SAKE! THAT IS IT!!!! :D :D :D

    And nowadays people can’t talk about religion in schools and things like that because they might offend someone by presenting a different view… oh wow. You have expressed my views so well. KUDOS!!! :D

  • It’s difficult to deal with said types of people, but I agree that people (myself included) should look at it from a different perspective once in a while. Great post John!

  • This is so true.  Turning something that can be offensive into a learning experience is accomplishing two goals at once.  You defuse the situation, and you affect the future as well.

  • intolereance for intolerance stopped segragation the kkk slavery and religios persucution. so yay for intolerance to intolerance.

  • The uptightness some people display when they get angry about intolerance reminds me of Christians who get uptight when someone does something “dishonoring” to the Lord.  Has tolerance become a god?  I am certain many people are tolerant because they genuinely value people and want to be kind to them in the same way that many Christians have values based on love for God and people and sincerity.  However, how many people respect tolerance out of fear…fear of punishment or rejection, or of being associated racists and bigots and fundamentalists should they be caught in intolerance?  They remind me of Christians who have lost sight of God’s love and are terrified of being punished if they are caught “disagreeing” with the Almighty.  Christians are frequently generalized and attacked for their lack of tolerance by today’s media.  I personally am not a huge fan of tolerance.  I think tolerance is a impotent pansy compared to love.  Love is sincere, proactive, courageous, and is always right whether or not it is popular.  Tolerance is fickle, based on popular opinion, and is a smokescreen to hide behind.  Love requires strength and sacrifice.  Tolerance saps strength and is an excuse not to sacrifice.  Love allows people to disagree and still honor.  Tolerance says unless you think like me, you don’t count.  Tolerance is a band aid used to “fix” gaping wounds in society that can only truly be healed by love mixed with truth.  However, just because I am not a fan of tolerance (at least as a cultural stereotype), doesn’t mean I don’t really like and respect some tolerant people.  And often agree with them.

  • amen to this.

  • I kind of love you for this post.

    I’m one of those “open-minded” people who does their best to listen and respect “intolerance”…but I’m guilty of succumbing to my own intolerance.
    I wish I knew of more people who actually think about these things. Sometimes, I’m pretty sure I’m the only person who thinks about the things they say and have said and feels guilt.
    What happened to people feeling guilty? I miss our humanity.

  • I don’t think a lot of people really understand what they condemn even if they should be condemning it. Attacking someone is the least likely way to get them to think differently. Now, if you’re a member of the KKK, I’m not going to be that nice. An ignorant comment or stating of intolerant/racist viewpoint is different though, and actually discussing it is important. I think people mistake lecturing people for discussion. I wouldn’t say we need to tolerate intolerance; I just think we need to understand it better and approach it differently.

    In South Africa, I met a lot of racist people, but everyone knew what was going on. People were honest about it. I almost prefer that to the silent fear and hatred that I sometimes don’t even realize is there even as it’s causing problems we can’t understand because we don’t understand what people are thinking.

  • I agree with everything except the religion part. I don’t have to respect others’ irrational beliefs that promote intolerance and hatred. This includes Christianity which is one of the worst.

  • Hey man how you doing me good well just wanted to drop in and say hi.

  • Well, most people expects others to be tolerant about many things, but most of times, they themselves are not.

  • Inspiring. Admittedly, I’ve been intolerant of intolerance before. Your post made me think. Perhaps I’ll try your approach to discuss it with them…

  • I believe I’m very open minded, but I wish I can openly discuss with people what I don’t tolerate and compare our perspective on things.  That way, maybe so many unfortunate events or confusion wouldn’t be occurring.  Good reminder for us all.

  • Excellent post! (:

  • *claps hands* hear hear, man. This is an awesome blog and I honestly feel that this has changed my views a little on homophobic people Who am I to judge them? Live and let live, right? *claps hands once more*

  • You don’t necessarily have to agree, but you must have an open mind. An open mind is a beautiful thing.

  • Intolerence would be if someone made a mildly prejudiced comment and you punched them in the face.  Calling someone out for saying something hateful or bigotted is, on the other hand, a good thing.  They slink away determined never to say it out loud again?  GOOD.  I call that progress.

    Society hasn’t progressed because bigotted people are such clever, open, reasonable folks that they decided to change their ways.  Yes, that does happen from time to time, but for the most part society changed away from most forms of bigotry because the bigots were embarrassed into shutting up long enough not to pass it on to as many people in the next generation.

    It is now socially unacceptable to bash gays – do you think the next generation will be more prejudiced against them or less prejudiced against them?

    If someone is racist, don’t slash their tires or spit in their face or egg their house, that would be genuine intolerence.  But disagree with them and do it LOUDLY.

  • yep… we must love our neighbors even though they are hard to love when they are hateful to our other neighbors

  • I see a double standard in tolerance all the time. And the reason is it’s a false tolerance. Today’s definition of tolerance tries to force the idea that all views are equally true- which logically is entirely false. Christians cannot accept that all religions are equally true- that truth and untruth cannot abide one another- and when we simply make this known we fall vicitim to those who have bought into this false view of tolerance.

    REAL tolerance is what Christians do practice: to allow others to believe as they do while agreeing to disagree that another view is equally true. Or perhaps a dictionary would be handy here: (from dictionary.com)

    <table class=”luna-Ent” minmax_bound=”true”>
    <tbody minmax_bound=”true”>
    <tr minmax_bound=”true”>
    <td class=”dn” valign=”top” minmax_bound=”true”>1.
    <td valign=”top” minmax_bound=”true”>a fair, objective, and permissive attitude toward those whose opinions, practices, race, religion, nationality, etc., differ from one’s own; freedom from bigotry.
    <table class=”luna-Ent” minmax_bound=”true”>
    <tbody minmax_bound=”true”>
    <tr minmax_bound=”true”>
    <td class=”dn” valign=”top” minmax_bound=”true”>2.
    <td valign=”top” minmax_bound=”true”>a fair, objective, and permissive attitude toward opinions and practices that differ from one’s own.
    <table class=”luna-Ent” minmax_bound=”true”>
    <tbody minmax_bound=”true”>
    <tr minmax_bound=”true”>
    <td class=”dn” valign=”top” minmax_bound=”true”>3.
    <td valign=”top” minmax_bound=”true”>interest in and concern for ideas, opinions, practices, etc., foreign to one’s own; a liberal, undogmatic viewpoint.
    <table class=”luna-Ent” minmax_bound=”true”>
    <tbody minmax_bound=”true”>
    <tr minmax_bound=”true”>
    <td class=”dn” valign=”top” minmax_bound=”true”>4.
    <td valign=”top” minmax_bound=”true”>the act or capacity of enduring; endurance: My tolerance of noise is limited.

    Tolerance does not mean you cannot have a negative opinion of others’ beliefs- it just means you don’t treat them like trash for holding those beliefs. There is nothing bigoted about this approach so long as it is done respectfully.

    Another issue that further complicates this issue is political correctness. If only we could go back to a society not afraid to call things for what they are instead of being afraid of hurting people’s fickle feelings all the time- it would do much to clear the air on the above false view of tolerance.

  • careful when making people consider their reasons for thinking how they do… they might blow up : P
    Nice post

  • On the other hand, too often I’ve seen people genuinely embarrassed to state that, for example, misogyny is an unaccepable attitude if it is cloaked in “cultural identity.”

    That is to say, they clearly believe it’s unacceptable, but are reluctant to say so (even in the absence of the offending opinion) for fear of being considered racist or otherwise “closeminded.”  As an example, a coworker of mine once apologized to me for very politely critiquing another coworker’s generally disrespectful attitude to female coworkers by cringing and saying “I know… it’s a cultural thing.  He just *doesn’t* respect women in the workplace.”  She was entirely serious; she really felt bad because she was upset about this. 

    Frankly, I don’t care if it’s a cultural thing or not… misogyny is misogyny (so on for the similar), whether it’s from an ignorant white guy or an ignorant Hindi or an ignorant Hottentot.  Be polite rather than abrasive, sure… but don’t apologize for recognizing ignorance for what it is when the proper context arises.

  • I disagree. If we are tolerant of behaviours like racism, homophopbia, and religious intolorences of any kind, things will never change. We can be respectful of the people spewing the intolerance without respecting what they say or making them feel that what they are saying is alright, because it isn’t. While everyone has a right to their opinion, when their opinion promotes any kind of hatred against others, they still can’t act on what they believe. One person’s freedom must end where another person’s freedom and right to live begins.

  • very, very good post. it’s nice to read some refreshing thoughts. 

  • true, but it gets nasty and infuriating at the point when one firmly refuses to accept other’s opinions for one reason or another.

    For example, it is the general agreed idea that racism is wrong. Then again, there are many who still stereotype and condemn groups of people based on their ethnic background and firmly believe themselves to be true. One of my friends frequently states that “All asians are annoying. they should all go back to where they came from if they are not going to speak our language.” This seems pretty bold coming from someone who is asian themselves, who states that since he was born and grew up in this country, he no longer belongs in the asian discourse. I asked him to further explain his point, and he added that it annoyed him seeing asians who don’t act “aussie” and continue to “do and talk about asian things even if they grew up here.” He was also quick to add that “all asians are unfriendly” without understanding – or more importantly refusing to understand the point of view of who he is accusing.

    I don’t understand why we have to show tolerance for these kinds of attitudes and statements, to those who simply refuse to open their minds and hearts. Why should we believe in the good and try to understand their narrow minds when they can provide no credit to their so-called facts?

  • I like that in your quest to be tolerant, you never gave up your right to disagree. I believe there is ‘right’ and there is ‘wrong’ (no matter how unpopular). I often find, though that there is intolerance for those who believe as I do (per my 2nd. line).

  • @Chinese_Sait0u - I wasn’t sure because I don’t have the best eyes & it’s so small :D I love Cyndaquil – it’s super cute

  • People suffer as much tyranny, tragedy, or cruelty as they have tolerance for.

    Education and open dialoque in a secular society are two answers that address the problem from the roots.

  • Apathy is my friend. I don’t think I can influence other people enough to change their ways, but then again it is their opinion/idea/theory… everyone is entitled to have one.

  • What you’re talking about is lack of maturity.

     A lot of people are only tolerant today because, well, it’s a more popular thing to be. I know a lot of people who, if they weren’t lectured for being intolerant, wouldn’t have the mindset to want to be tolerant.

     White people are scolded when they say anything racial at all, whether it be racist or just something about race, for an example.
     Nowadays a lot of people have to be really cautious.

     But there’s still that primitive tendency we all have to dislike a group or something, to make them a scapegoat for their frustrated whims, et c., et c.
     This is where our immaturity comes in to not thing logically, and to let our primitive human tendencies take over.
     We aren’t mature about just leaving intolerant people be with their intolerant thoughts. We have to scold, poke, prod, and ostracize them, since a lot of us can’t just be mature.

  • “Intolerance for intolerance?”

    I don’t see why I should be subjected to someone’s hate to begin with. If someone hates Hispanics, for example, why should I seat down and think about what the racist said to me?

    Should this person be silenced? Certainly not. But honestly it’s quite foolish to think a racist or a mysoginist will “slink into the night” simply because the poor victims’ opinions are condemned.

    I don’t deal hate. And I hardly think I’m narrow-minded because I’m intolerant to it.

    All these comments raving you are quite unfounded. Then again, that’s to be expected from today’s young pseudo-intellectuals.

  • it’s one thing to be tolerant, it’s another to be relativist.

    tolerance allows acceptance that another feels a certain way, while totally disagreeing with them, though not hindering their rights to express themselves against your convictions.

    a relativist accepts every other person’s convictions as plausible and completely legitimate, without imposing personal convictions even on themselves.

    as a Christian, i applaud tolerance, but relativism implies ignorance. I will agree to disagree with people, but not accept their side, or even believe them to be right, even for them, but I will allow them to keep their convictions without standing in the way of their rights. but i may still hold my belief that they are wrong, even in my tolerance.

  • I’m not really sure taht this entry was in response to an anti-interacial dating blog recently posted, but I certainly put off by said blog, so it came as a relief that you wrote this.

    *feels a little better*.  thanks.

  • I just can’t tolerate people who are intolerant of intolerance!!!

  • nice day ^^

  • ^^

  • hearhear!

  • I think J-Smooth has a good take on this, and he has a very down-to-earth, pragmatic approach. He is more concerned about “how to communicate effectively” than anything else, and I like that. In addiction, he has well articulated concerns about responsibility and what works socially (and in the long term) rather than getting to far up in his head thinking about semantics like “tolerance for intolerance” or getting emotional. 

    I highly recommend that you watch J-Smooth’s “How to Tell Someone They Sound Racist.”

  • props

  • @wherethefishlives - White sugar and white bread isn’t good for you but I have to tolerate them, especially when I have no choice. The same reasoning goes for who whites or blacks pick as friends….

    Lynching is a bad thing (even though people want to lynch child perverts) and to express lynching as a joke involving blacks is total disrespect. I can say that the British policy during the Opium war was disrespectful towards the Chinese but overall in the present most people are tolerant and just bring up the past to get their “digs” in.

    Your “black licorice” comment was meant to get a dig in but I don’t think you did any contribution to this discussion …..Some words are just like waving a red flag in front of a bull…..

  • Wow I was going to post about this some time . . . you beat me to it. Damnit!

    But man, you are totally on point.

  • I really like this post.

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